tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4602240033757281319.post7683870139653215228..comments2023-09-29T05:23:17.592-07:00Comments on Have you danced with the software?: ATDD is like a fight in the playground.Tony Brucehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14044205740382054059noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4602240033757281319.post-73107048048242796742011-11-25T06:24:00.289-08:002011-11-25T06:24:00.289-08:00Hi Sigge,
Perhaps 'fight' wasn't the ...Hi Sigge,<br /><br />Perhaps 'fight' wasn't the right to use, 'rush' might have been better.<br /><br />It wasn't a bad experience at all.<br /><br />What I meant was that eveybody was so eager to get moving that sometimes we needed to stop and collect ourselves together and then move on together.<br /><br />Instead, it was a situation that whoever was available wrote the tests which meant that the discussions were missed.Tony Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14044205740382054059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4602240033757281319.post-85929605986462049162011-11-17T15:21:02.343-08:002011-11-17T15:21:02.343-08:00Hi Tony,
I am sorry to say, that it sounds like ...Hi Tony, <br /><br />I am sorry to say, that it sounds like you had an awful experience. But as stated in the comments I dont think its what ATDD is meant to be. <br /><br />So I would start on the other end, before picking the next fights. <br /><br />Who initiated using ATDD in the first place? Is there any value someone expects from it? Compare to previous approaches, is this better or worse?<br /><br />Or even so, what are your organizations values around quality? If that is not a clear thing, I would suggest starting there. Since if the ATs are not taken seriously anyway by the developers, then its of no use actually that testers or BAs write them anyway.<br /><br />There are no easy answers, more than I can say hope you have better experiences in the future.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4602240033757281319.post-63667656150260710162011-07-27T01:26:06.509-07:002011-07-27T01:26:06.509-07:00Interesting analogy Tony.
How about taking the fi...Interesting analogy Tony.<br /><br />How about taking the fight out of the school playground, and putting it in Madison Square Gardens?<br /><br />Instead of hoping people hear about the fight through the grapevine, put out huge billboards and advertising to attract viewers. <br /><br />You won't need to fight your way to the front of the crowd, because there will be adequate seating for everyone.<br /><br />The boxers will be accompanied by their coach and entourage, so they won't have to make all the decisions by themselves.<br /><br />There will be a referee to make sure everyone is playing fair and by the rules.<br /><br />Judges will keep scorecards, so that when the fight is over, we will remember who won and why.<br /><br />Once the spectacle is over and the dust has settled, there will be no "Heavyweight champion of the world" titles given out, but at least everyone can say they saw a clash they would never forget, and will be talking about for weeks on end.<br /><br />(roughly modelled on specification workshops http://www.acceptancetesting.info/key-ideas/specification-workshop/)triedandtestedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18080682594100840017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4602240033757281319.post-5450176618831600332011-07-26T02:13:19.614-07:002011-07-26T02:13:19.614-07:00@contextdrivenagility.com, thanks for the comments...@contextdrivenagility.com, thanks for the comments. I think I should clarify, I don't think it's meant to be done that way it's just how I've experienced it, if you're not there, you miss out.Tony Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14044205740382054059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4602240033757281319.post-24966955098938225052011-07-25T17:17:22.876-07:002011-07-25T17:17:22.876-07:00I don't believe ATDD is meant to be a fight at...I don't believe ATDD is meant to be a fight at all. <br /><br />My understanding is that ATDD/Specification by Example are meant to revolve around story workshops early on in a project. <br /><br />An engineer, tester and a product owner (product manager) assemble to discuss the details of a story. The goal of the workshop is to achieve shared understanding through concrete examples of the story between the stakeholder, developer and tester. <br /><br />The stakeholder/product owner makes the ultimate decision in this meeting. The role of the developer and tester are to provide their unique expertise in either identifying risks or implementation issues prior to starting development. <br /><br />Executable specifications in a domain specific language (or otherwise), concrete examples, and acceptance criteria are all fantastic byproducts of the shared understanding attained in this workshop.<br /><br />If your product managers are harboring a waterfall at the top of their process and developing specifications in isolation, there will be resistance to change in that workshop. If a product manager spends 3 months writing detailed specifications they will not be excited at the prospect of throwing any of it away. <br /><br />Ultimately, in a product owner-driven group the final decision belongs to the stakeholder/product owner. If the tester and dev vehemently desire a criteria and the stakeholder disagrees the discussion should move on to the next step. <br /><br />These are my .02 cents on ATDD fights. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com